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Comments

vividme's picture

I think there is a point to the 'only property holders being able to vote' statement, although not so much about 'property holders' but more about 'federal taxpayers' as in perhaps you should only be able to vote if you actually pay federal income taxes.  Around 50% of Americans pay no federal income tax, such as through getting back all of their witholding in a tax refund check, and yet they get to vote on the freebies and benefits just as equally as the people actually paying the bill.  There could also be exceptions for people contributing greatly to the country even without paying federal taxes through things such as military service. I don't expect many to agree but it is a perspective worth considering.
Delphiaticalizm's picture

If you are an American citizen you should be able to vote. Doesn't matter If you are homeless or a wall street crook. It is unconstitutional, undemocratic, and Un-American to say that certain people should not have the right to vote. 
vividme's picture

I do believe that each American citizen should have the right to vote.  The idea was presented to get the perspective considered that perhaps more people should have 'skin in the game' when it comes to paying into what the government does.  I'm not necessarily for a flat tax but if we are going to increase the role of government, say for example to have free health care for all or another war, or whatever then we should consider having everyone contribute into paying the cost for such actions (arguably 'benefits')   There's an example of democracy being something like a locker room full of guys and a random lost but cute nun who has wandered into the room and everyone gets an equal vote on if there will be sex had.  It's a flaw of equal voting and unequal taxation (amounts or proportions) ...the masses can vote away more and more from the minorities.
parthenogenesis's picture

felons should get to vote?  how about babies?
Tolland Man's picture

Shouldn't pregnant women get to vote more than once?

vividme's picture

Ha, good point on the age thing. Forgot that only _adult_ citizens probably should be allowed to vote.  I never have really understood the felon aspect.  Why should they not be allowed to vote anyway?  Perhaps there could be some very basic history, current events etc type test as a requirement to vote.  It would certainly get more intelligent, informed voters.
dw's picture

Thank god these crazy assed extremist aren't running things!!
Delphiaticalizm's picture

They kinda do run the house, which is why nothing gets done..... fucking teabagger obstructionists. 
Uncle Milty's picture

Corporations pay much more in taxes than individuals. They should be able to megavote, right?
Delphiaticalizm's picture

That's not true when you consider all the loop holes that corporations take advantage of. Bottom line: The very poor get over on the system and the very rich do as well. The middle class get fucked and that is why our country is in deep shit. A strong working/middle class society= a strong economy period!
m1ck3y's picture

If the laws of governance affect you, you should be able to vote once you are an adult.
laa laa's picture

are you one of those fucking idiots who doesn't understand that people who pay "no income tax" do pay a lot of other taxes, and that their effective tax burden is very often higher than that of people not paying income tax?

apparently only people who collect a paycheck are worthy of voting, but you haven't provided a good justification as to why.  people who don't pay income tax still pay all the other taxes that fund society.  what level should be adequate?  $1 of income tax?  $1000?  where do you draw the line?

you didn't think this through very well.  somehow i suspect that is a regular occurrence in your life.  just sayin'.
vividme's picture

Do tell this 'fucking idiot' just how much and what taxes the average person pays to the federal government if they aren't paying federal income tax.  The only one that comes to mind would be a gasoline tax, which I believe has some amount from the pump price going to the feds.  There is no federal sales tax.  Property taxes are local.  My example was clearly about federal taxes and medicare / social security don't really count as a tax as they are supposed to be going into a fund which then directly pays back in benefits to the contributors, not the federal budget in general. 
m1ck3y's picture

Let's not split hairs. Taxes are taxes are taxes.  
vividme's picture

Where they go is very important.  I believe the federal gas tax goes mainly to help pay for highways..which makes sense, the more you use/pay the more benefit you get back with better roads (in theory)   I pay local property taxes which pay for the schools down the road.  It would be kinda weird to pay property taxes to fund schools in a far away state and have them not pay any taxes on it.  The reason for the federal taxes specifying is because it's a bit off for people to be able to vote for federal reps and influence them to do things like 'Give us free nationalized healthcare'  when they don't pay anything into that, so their contribution / sacrifice doesn't go up, it's just free goodies for them. 
m1ck3y's picture

You are looking at governance simply as a form of tax distribution. It extends far beyond that and includes everything from drug laws to foreign policy, which affects everyone regardless of the amount of taxes they pay, which is why everyone gets to vote. Your argument stinks of entitlement and that's a smelly cologne for anyone.
heritage's picture

and, thoughts like that are what lead to those in power only gaining more power. oppressing the already weak simply because they are less privileged than another group is just innately morally wrong. unless you live in a third world country. if you want laws that make it so those who are already "over-privileged" to gain more privileges over those that are already fucked, then you're asking for a dictatorship.
it's not a perspective worth considering 


Tolland Man's picture

If the weak aren't here to be oppressed, what fucking good are they?  Try to oppress the strong and see where THAT gets you. And as far as being "over privileged"?  You can't be too rich, too beautiful, too skinny, or over privileged.  You talk crazy talk mister.  Get a grip.
heritage's picture

With the English that you treasure so highly, if there is under-privilege, there must be over-privilege.You can't have under without over. Compared to most places in the world, I'm over-privileged. I have infinitely more advantage than billions of other fucks on this planet.
Tolland Man's picture

So willingly give it up. Set an example.  Why wait to be forced to do something you know is right?  Do you know how evil that makes you? 
heritage's picture

Well that would be irresponsible for the fact that I am a parent, and do need to take care of my son. But I do volunteer as often as I can, and try to contribute good in whatever ways I can. I'm hoping to save up the money to go on a trip to Peru in January where the central focus is volunteering and helping out the homeless down there.
Tolland Man's picture

It's irresponsible for you to offer it freely, but okay for the government to demand it?  I really don't understand you.  You refuse to offer it because... you want someone to force you to hand it over.  Do you have sexual rape fantasies too?

But congrats on Peru.   I hope you  build some nice huts. 

vividme's picture

In a democracy the masses aren't weak by definition.  At least when it comes to the voting booth the masses have the power. 
dw's picture

Why does that due have a penis coming out of his head,,,,,because he's a republican!
Duncan-O's picture

Why does that dude secretly have penises going INTO his head?........because he's a NOM republican!
snake plissken's picture

i think no one should be able to vote except for me.
caireaux's picture

i LIEK POLTIKZ GUIZ
Tolland Man's picture

I think the value of your vote should be directly tied to your productivity. Of course, the worthless and/or stupid would disagree.  And if you are too lazy, poor, or stupid to get a picture ID before you go to the voting booth, you should be ridiculed and beaten...  in that order. 

Delphiaticalizm's picture

Don't you realize that these ID laws target old people, who don't really have the means to run around spending money to find the correct paper work in order to apply for the voter ID. You also have students who are out of state and this makes it difficult for them as well. You have the poor & the minorities who are also unable to spend the time or the money to get the ID. 
Now, you combine this-pain in the ass irrelevant fucking ID law-with an American population who is already jaded and not sure if they even should vote, you get low turn outs. The Republifucks know this and thats why they're implementing these laws. It's a fucking crime if you ask me and is perhaps, the worst thing I've ever seen in politics in my lifetime.  Of course, you agree with the Republifucks so you probably just see it as good strategy and not as CHEATING! This law suppresses the demographic that turned out for Obama in 2008 PERIOD.  
Tolland Man's picture

I'm all about fairness. If I lost my vote because more stringent voter requirements were put into place,  it would be just  fine with me.   As long as all the other worthless, non-productive, sponges on society lost their right to vote too.  And of course, you're right.  They ARE Obama's core voters.  I guess I'm just a rebel.
heritage's picture

(This is written poorly, but I had to say something. I'm not great at forming arguments, but I sure as hell give enough shits to try. I'm the George Bush to your Obama. I highly doubt this will change your mind in the least, and I have no doubt that plenty of italicized insults will be thrown my way about how I'm just another liberal leech that doesn't want to do anything for this country. But before you say that, I'm fine. I'm happily middle class and have well more than what I need, I don't care if the Gov makes any new laws or regulations to better my life, cause it's pretty damn good already. It's the under-privleged that I give a shit about, the people who are just as good if not better human beings (and most of them probably are better, actually) than I am.)
There are so many things that are just completely wrong with the idea that a persons ability to vote should be based upon how much they're able to provide to society. What about a service member who was paralyzed or severely disabled due to their service. Are they not allowed to vote because now they're a "leech"? Do you also know, that more white people are on welfare and medicaid (by percentage) than any other demographic? Or did you just assume that it was mostly minorities? I don't see you rallying against the nice white folk.

The problem with the mentality is that sure, it makes you feel good. Great. Good for you. You must feel like a man for being able to determine that you and people that think like you have more value than these "other" people that you denigrate so often. But even if it makes you feel good, the mentality that they just need to buck up and deal like everyone else is wrong from the get go because the starting line isn't in the same place. It's the placement of the starting lines that needs to be fixed, but unfortunately the lines are determined in people's heads. The starting lines will only be equal when this country actually recognizes that prejudice is rampant in our society, and racism is significantly broader than being a member of the KKK or the Aryan Nation. Most white people are killed by other white people, yet most white people guard themselves against minorities. When a white person commits murder or blows up a building, they were just a random crazy dingbat, but when someone who looks different commits a crime, anyone that looks like them could do the same thing.

And finally, what I don't understand, is how you can think that millions of Americans are just being lazy rather than a couple of hundred are just really fucking greedy. How does that seem more probable? Why aren't they a target of your vitriol? They're the true leeches of society, and the conspirators to turn us against our fellows.
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/(X(1)S(tjo1o255d5exkc45he0ed0r1))/displayArticle.aspx?articleid=6070&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1 
http://makingchangeatwalmart.org/files/2011/10/Respect-Work-Restore-America1.pdf 

Tolland Man's picture

Whether you know it or not, whether you admit it or not, you are an extremist.  Please understand, I don't mean that as an insult. I often post outlandish shit in direct opposition to the currently popular uber/mega/radical/liberal point of view.  You continue to do what you do, and I will continue to do what I do.  It's exactly what Obama wants. It's divisive. 

As long as you see racism everywhere, it will be everywhere.  Same with ghosts.   Racism is now nothing more than an excuse. 

heritage's picture

Honestly, I didn't see racism, until I understood it within myself. I went and got that there edumacation thing, and in a totally no-bullshit way opened my eyes to the ways in which I was a bigot. I wanted to believe that I wasn't a racist or prejudiced because I just thought black people needed to dress and act like white people, I wanted to think that my authoritarian and ethnocentric tendencies weren't a bad thing, and that lack of assimilating to the status quo is what causes poverty. But the problem is, for anyone that's a person of any color other than white, there are still so many underlying parts of our culture and our society that undermine those attempts. And unfortunately it's way more complex than can be explained in happy little soundbites, which is probably the reason that I feel that it's getting worse and worse everyday. If it can't be put into a meme format and put on Facebook, people won't read it.

I would love to have a legit conversation with you at some point, dude.


Tolland Man's picture

I think the edumacation you got was likely from a biased Liberal educational system like those that I abhor.  They bend and skew the very definition of "racism" to suit their needs.  The way they define racism, you  must believe we are all racists. Unless you have one of those ignorant asshole teachers who say Black people can't be racist.  That's bullshit.  If we are equal, we can all be racist. The VAST majority of people in this country believe that all normal men are created with equal potential. They believe that there is no race that is inherently superior to any other. Too many people confuse racism with bigotry.  "big·ot (b g t). n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ"  I admittedly despise popular Negro culture, and I despise Popular Islamic culture, but I also despise the Liberal extremist view, and their hypocrisy.  I do not think of any Negro or Muslim or Liberal as an inferior human being. Now, that said, if you somehow found me a Liberal Negro Muslim, I might make an exception.  As for prejudice?  Prejudice is not necessarily a bad thing either. Just like racial profiling, it can keep you alive. 

As for a legit conversation, I'm not sure that I'm capable.  On SG, that would take a fuck-ton of typing.  And actual thought.  That's a lot to ask.  As you can tell, I usually check my brain at logon and just run on hormones and Crown Royal.

heritage's picture

Except that my instructor is a straight white male (although he does have a mullet, so take that as you will).
And yes, we are equal, biologically. There is no difference between us, and that's obvious by the fact that some people of color are able to make a solid living for themselves. But a much higher percentage of them still don't, and that's because of rules and criteria that have been developed within our own society. Whites also already had the land, had the property, had the businesses. We owned everything already, already had a big head start. Then we pass a few laws and expect everything to be equal. We have the solid foundation provided to us by our ancestors. And sure, there are douchebags of every color, but I wholeheartedly believe that if the playing field was actually level then the averages of douchebags would be the same between these different groups we've created.
Santorum gave a speech saying that he wants to make sure that Black people in Iowa stop stealing money from hardworking "other" people, when 92% of people on Welfare in Iowa are White. That's just a small example that shows that these kinds of mentalities are still accepted and prevalent (he did win Iowa, afterall).
Tolland Man's picture

Racism is a non issue to me. It continues to diminish. Whats left of it is spread equally between Blacks and Whites. Again,to me, it's all about the popular Black culture. Black culture is incredibly counterproductive, and yet when someone is overtly critical, they are invariably called "racist" by Liberal imbeciles. 

Now, as for the ..... Santorum gave a speech saying that he wants to "make sure that Black people in Iowa stop stealing money from hardworking 'other' people"...... He never said that.  No one in his right mind would ever make such a statement and continue to hold a public office for long, MUCH LESS entertain competing in politics at a national level. Your obviously intense desire to deride your opposition makes you believe the most ridiculous shit imaginable.  Stop it.  Good lord, man, consider the source when you see these things.  The people writing these things? Who are they? What are they trying to accomplish?  Are they biased?  If you search for bullshit, you will surely find it.  That's why the Internet was invented by Al Gore.

heritage's picture

Wasn't anything that was written.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgLMghcPDVs
Tolland Man's picture

I watched the video TWICE and he said nothing remotely like you claim. If you honestly believe that in that tape, Santorum gave a speech saying that he wants to "make sure that Black people in Iowa stop stealing money from hardworking 'other' people, we have no need for further discussion.  If that is what you got out of his remarks, you are biased beyond my comprehension.  Your hatred for conservatives blinds you AND deafens you.  It's okay though, I wrestle with that too.  But there really is no need for us to continue.  Enjoy!
heritage's picture

I like how once something actually possibly proves you wrong, I'm the one that's exceptionally biased. Whether he used the word "steal" or not, he still outs only Black people as the ones that are abusing welfare. Not Whites, Latinos, Native Americans, Asians...Blacks. 
Tolland Man's picture

He did not say that only Blacks "anything" either.  You are hopelessly biased. To the point that it makes you dishonest. 
heritage's picture

Absolutely not. I initially had no issues with Santorum. He intrigued me, until I found out more about his core beliefs. I don't vote by label, or choose by label. I hate CNN as much as I hate Fox. By being blind to the fact that what he said was indeed racist, well... you're just continuing to prove my point.
Tolland Man's picture

No, I am disputing your reporting as not just inaccurate, but intentionally inaccurate. As far as what he said being a racist statement, I emphatically disagree.  It was a poor choice of words, obviously off the cuff, and he went on to say that he wanted to help the Black people who have no jobs, get jobs, as opposed to public assistance, but he in NO WAY implied that Blacks are inferior to anyone.  And YOU are just being a disengenous crybaby.  Get a fucking grip.  You may certainly continue to think of me as a racist, and I shall just think of you as an idiot. Fair enough?

GOD, I love AMERICA!!!

heritage's picture

The problem is, I've been in your shoes. I've seen the world from your eyes because I used to think as you do, and would've agreed with you on many of your points earlier in my life. But remember that education thing? That willingness to go and seek knowledge that doesn't fit into your own tidy little world view that you've created for yourself? Hearing things that differ from your beliefs hurts, science has proved that but not like you need to be told. 

Again, you're thinking of prejudice and racism too narrowly. It's not just cross-burning and hangings and using derogatory terms. There are overt racists, and not so overt racists. The ones that are quiet about it worry me more than those that are blatant. They're the ones that coerce normal nice people into having fear of people that look or act differently than they do.

I think you're a nice person and I know you mean well, and you know I think you're smart. But you've been misdirected, your discontent is directed at the wrong people.
Tolland Man's picture

We may agree on more than you think, but since we don't have the same approach to language you'll never know. You say I'm thinking of racism too narrowly and I disagree. I believe that I'm quite correct and being quite accurate and precise in what I say about racism. The lack of accuracy that you seem to so willingly display (it's either that or intentionally dishonesty, and I don't believe you are being intentionally dishonest) makes it very difficult to have a meaningful discussion. 

There are almost NO people living in this country today who actually think that one race is superior to another.  The majority of the ones that still do believe such nonsense are probably in nursing homes or prison. 

Are all races always given equal opportunity in this country?  Generally speaking, yes.  Occasionally, no.  And when they are not, it is both wrong and illegal. Are Negros sometimes discriminated against in this country strictly because of their race?  Rarely, but yes. That's both wrong and illegal too.  Are Caucasians sometimes discriminated against in this country? Yes. Do you even care?  Honestly?  Enough to complain? 

No Negro living in the United States today has ever been a slave in the United States.  Yet there ARE slaves in other countries. There is state sponsored racism and bigotry still being practiced in many other countries today. If you really want to stamp out racism, and bigotry, you my friend, are the one thinking too narrowly. Harass and harangue people in other countries where it is still a REAL problem.  Racism is almost dead in America.  You have never seen a colored water fountain.  I have.  I'll wager you have never marched in a civil rights protest.  I have. You keep reading, and eventually you'll learn what people just like me have already done in the battle for civil rights and equality.  Your pride in seeking knowledge is fine, but we didn't just read about racism and whine...... we acted. 

BTW.... You're welcome.

 

Delphiaticalizm's picture

Hmmmm, learning some things about you...However, you do realize that white MEN run the world? How can you say that racism isn't prevalent in modern American culture. I do agree that it is diminishing. When I grew up it was taboo to date a black women and now it is not so much, for instance.
However, when you look at who is disproportionally affected by our current system in this country it is the black population. This isn't because they are black and don't know how to act. It's because of a history where black americans have been displaced and discriminated against. We are seeing the result of it and aren't doing anything about it. If you've witnessed it first hand how can you not understand their plight? Sure, I believe in personal responsibility and I can tell you that many black people think that their own people need to wake the fuck up and get their shit together. However, like I said, it is a combination of history, policy, and the media that continues to oppress many black americans. The media especially, perpetuates racism on both sides. Surely you can agree with that. Although, I differentiate  between the definition of racism and bigotry. The media feeds bigotry. Racism, is an underlying scourge that is more complex. Politicians who implement policies that negatively effect black americans and minorities are racist, whether they realize it or not. They justify their actions with their lofty ideas of personal responsibility and/or their Christian faith. 
Tolland Man's picture

The majority of the world is run by white men, true.  And there are many reasons for that, some legitimate. Yes, there is racism in American culture, but the fact is just as you state, it is (thankfully) continuously diminishing. The only way you could reliably speed the process would be to kill all the people in nursing homes (maybe THAT'S Obama's plan with health-care?), and then you'd have to kill a lot of innocent people too.  And of course most Black people know how to act. And the majority of Black people in America act just fine.  But the ones who do NOT act in an acceptable fashion are still accepted and excused by the majority of people in the Black communities and many others.  You do not want to accept and excuse White thugs like you perceive Zimmerman to be, but do you rant and rave and spew hatred and anger at Black thugs?  We ARE ALL equal.  It is the LAW.  If you want to further the equality of Americans, then it must be for ALL AMERICANS. INSIST UPON IT.  But if you wish to excuse the actions of Black ganstas and thugs and not the actions of ALL ganstas and thugs (criminals) including those who commit crimes against the Black community, YOU are promoting what you call racism.  If you cannot be just as hard on the despicable popular Black culture so prevalent today as you are on the Tea Party for instance, then by your definition of racism, YOU are being a racist.

Plainly put, in my opinion TRUE racism (as defined in Websters)  in America is thankfully almost gone. Almost without exception, the only people who live and act as if racism still existed on a large scale in this country are Black. And they all too often unfairly and disingenuously merely use it as an excuse for special treatment, despicable behaviour, unfair advantage...... ironically, all the things a slave owner used to demand to be excused for.  Whether you see and believe it or not, Black gansta/angry/racist/thug culture and your (and other people's) quietly implied support of that culture is EXACTLY what I am really attacking.  I see the average Black man or woman in this country as still being involved in a struggle for equality, and believe that it will one day be achieved.  Unfortunately, SOME Black people are only making it more difficult.  And SOME Black people do not even WANT equality.  They want something more.  As some kind of payment for past historical misdeeds.  Sorry, but they are not my personal historical misdeeds.  And you did not personally experience them.  You don't have a right to claim special consideration for historical wrongdoing any more than I have a responsibility to pay for it.  We are all equal.  Right now. Demand TRUE EQUALITY.  I do.  And believe me, I'll get in my powerchair and attend any march for true equality with you, and you can even sit in my lap and ride of you get tired. It's gotta start somewhere.  And to do any less is than fight for true equality is, by your own definition, racism.  

Delphiaticalizm's picture

Well said! 
Grey Goo's picture

Can we really put up with another 4 years liberals?

Liberals: of course "we can" what a stupid question to ask

(goes back to living off mom and dads tits)


heritage's picture

chronitron's picture

heritage, GREY GOO IS A FUCKING MORON